GRP vs Wood hulls, Alum. masts vs wood

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Michael_H
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GRP vs Wood hulls, Alum. masts vs wood

Post by Michael_H »

Gentlemen and Ladies; I am looking for some help. I am struggling with the idea of a GRP hull vs. wood hull. I do not want to take anything away from the folks that sail with GRP hulls, but I have a wooden hull Wayfarer that is 51 years old and is still sailing really well. However, it is an open boat and I am considering a boat with a small cuddy, but also at least has the performance of a Wayfarer. So I am looking for a high performance stable boat that I can build myself, but with a small cabin. GRP is usually not suitable for homebuilt efforts.

In looking at the ads, it would appear that I can purchase a used GRP boat for less than half or a third of what it would cost to construct a new one. I have looked at the Dudley Dix design Cape Cutter 19, and have been in touch with Keith Callahan regarding a Blue Motion 550 (with a small cabin). Both of these are wood hulls, but they involve the whole building process, since I cannot find any on the used markets. The Scamp (GRP and Wood) and Sage 17 are nice boats, not high performance and can have GRP hulls.

Sort of the same issue with the masts, I have built wood masts and admire their appearance, however aluminium masts are much more durable, and with less maintenance.

So clearly, I am conflicted on these issues. Your thoughts would be most welcome. I guess I am not firmly in the camp of the wooden boat traditionalists yet.
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knasman
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Re: GRP vs Wood hulls, Alum. masts vs wood

Post by knasman »

Michael,

I have built two wooden boats ( a 10ft acorn and a SCAMP) and have owned a larger GRP boat (Columbia 22). Some thoughts for you:

- How much money and time are you willing to devote to building a boat? A boats volume triples with its length so they get costly quickly. On the other hand, if you have time to spread out both the money and the effort then you can aspire to as large a boat as you want. I tracked the hours and money on the acorn and it took 320 admittedly disjointed hours to build and about $2000 in materials, launched in 1998. It took three years but we had two kids and I remodeled half the house to slow me down. The SCAMP took me a year of fairly serious evenings and weekends to complete, more like 600 to 800+ hours, and cost me over $8000, including the kit, course, trailer, and mast building course. I'm sure anyone who's built a boat will tell you it's hard to calculate the pleasure and pride of having brought a boat to life.

- How will you store this new boat? My acorn lives in the garage and has probably had two coats of varnish over the years, but its had light use. My SCAMP has been in the water for a year and I don't baby it. I've run aground on stumps, sand, rocks, and a rock reef. It will probably need a repaint next year. If your boat has to live out in the elements, like a marina, then GRP would be less of a worry. My 22 was in a marina and through the Pacific NW winter it had its share of dirt, grime and algae growing on it. It always seemed like I was scrubbing that thing. That, in addition to the moorage and lack of being able to trailer it, is why I have the SCAMP. She's sailed a week in Puget Sound each of the last summer's and even went to Vancouver, BC for my friend's launch.

As much as I love my SCAMP, I again have dreams of a boat with a cozy cabin. I've recently purchased study plans for John Welsford's Penguin (22ft) on the sail side, and Sam Devlin's 19ft version of Dipper on the power side. I have no illusions as to how long those would take to build - years, in addition to having to buy a new house where I could actually build one of them.

Whatever I build, it will be trailerable and therefore much more maintainable.
Keith Nasman
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Michael_H
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Re: GRP vs Wood hulls, Alum. masts vs wood

Post by Michael_H »

Knasman, Thank You so much for your comments. To answer some of your questions: I have built a 21' cedar strip double kayak and in 2013 built a Dudley Dix design PaperJet 14. I have also been refurbishing my Wayfarer, new varnish, rigging, sails, etc. So I have some idea of what I am considering. It will have to be trailerable, as a rented slip is just too costly. I have a fabric garage structure where it will be stored, especially in the winter. Whether the boat is strip planked or plywood, it will still have an epoxy coating with fiberglass cloth embedded. If the boat is to be trailered and not kept in the water, I would think that the maintenance on the hull would be minimal. Which sort of takes me back to my original musings. Wood or used GRP hull at 1/2 or 1/3 the cost of new. Thanks Again, Michael H.
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Re: GRP vs Wood hulls, Alum. masts vs wood

Post by JohnT »

I believe that there are only two good reasons to build your own boat. First, to satisfy a personal need to create or build something. Many of us find the process pleasant (mostly) and enjoy being able to say, " I built this." Second, building your own boat may be the only way to get the particular boat you want.

Note that boatbuilding is not an inexpensive way to acquire a boat. Used fiberglass boats are available at very low cost. A used boat will usually come with sails and rigging, a trailer, oars/paddle, often with a compass, ground tackle, and a motor. All of these must be purchased separately by a boat builder.

Another issue involves time to launch. I just spent a couple of years building a boat. you can spend your time (and money) any way you want, but you can only spend it once. Time spent building is time that can't be spent sailing.

The economics of time and money suggest you are better off buying used. But self satisfaction and realization of creative urges have value too...

Either way, have fun.

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Monies
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Re: GRP vs Wood hulls, Alum. masts vs wood

Post by Monies »

Really well put John! I look at our little fleet here and the used fiberglass boat I bought Mike years ago is almost finished but he stopped it when he began to build boats again. I would personally like it if we had it in a marina and could just go run down and take her out easily.

But Mike gets so much joy from building, even more than he does sailing.
He will build a boat, go out and about around the country, hauling and sailing her, yet never take her out at home, despite the fact we live on a boat launch and huge lake. He enjoys the creative process most of all, the camaraderie of group events next and going out alone least of all. Or so it appears.

So I think another question should be: how do you see yourself using this boat?

Love, Jackie Monies- The Red Scamp and others
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Re: GRP vs Wood hulls, Alum. masts vs wood

Post by GENE L »

Like yourself I too have pondered 'Which Boat Next'? I sailed a CC Shrimper 19, and like you looked to Dudley Dix'es 'Cape Cutter 19' (and then his 'Cape Cutter 21' as *better*. But for the past 10 years I have spent hours perusing Keith Callaghan's website http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/profile.htm, lusting after a 'Blue Lightning' and more recently his 'Blue Skies' designs! I even spent 3 hours on a phone call to the German builder who crafts these in wood/fbglass. I almost dropped the phone when I heard him say the 'Blue Lightning' cost US $ 50,000! There are a few used ones on the European market occassionally, but still out of my reach financially.

What's your reason for not just using that 14 ft DD Rocketship you built?

By the way, the Sage 17 is a very nice performance trailer sailer, and the folks at Sage Marine go out of their way to satisfy every customer. Give Dave Scobie a call and take 'Airborne' for a sail! It's a bit smaller volume wise than my old M17, but a quality built boat throughout IMO. Again, out of my reach financially. The old M17 does'nt have the CC 19's interior volume, but it is a decent sailing boat compared to the majority of trailer sailers.
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Re: GRP vs Wood hulls, Alum. masts vs wood

Post by capt.fred »

I go for GRP. Once the lay up is properly done, the GRP can be forever. I designed and hand built a 50' 23 ton cutter yawl that will be 40 years old next year. No rot or hull problems. I'm new to this forum and have not figured out how to do attachments. If you would like to see a six minute current drone aerial of the Daedalus, please try YouTube "Sail the Daedalus". I sold her in 02. The Daedalus has been a daily sailor all these years and is certified for 23 passengers. You know what that means, USCG wise.
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Re: GRP vs Wood hulls, Alum. masts vs wood

Post by capt.fred »

I would like to continue my post with an 18 foot boat suggestion. Look up Blue Water boat works, Texas. The blackwatch 18 is a cutter, but can be a sloop. The beam on this 18 footer is almost half the length. Lots of room inside. My Blackwatch 18 is the last one built in 1980. The owner built her for himself and it is a gaff cat. The only one in existence and she is my dream boat.
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Art Haberland
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Re: GRP vs Wood hulls, Alum. masts vs wood

Post by Art Haberland »

while GRP does need it's own amount of upkeep and maintenance.. Hulls made of the stuff seem to last forever on minimal upkeep and disdain. My own SeaSprite 23 was built in 1963 and is a good example of it.

Yes, I have had to go completely through the hull, including grinding off a lot of gelcoat that had gone beyond crazed and into cracked, but I also still need to replace every bit of wood in the boot as it was all rotted.. yes, even the bunks and the bit of mahogany that supported the chainplates.

At this point it is a labour of love.. and I enjoy the work, but I do want to get her into the water in 2017.

As for building, I have plans to purchase a used South Jersey Beach Skiff, also known as a Lifeguard boat. On this sturdy and seaworthy hull I intend to construct a deck, seating, and place a nice lug yawl rig similar to Welsford's Navigator.
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PAR
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Re: GRP vs Wood hulls, Alum. masts vs wood

Post by PAR »

Material choices are dependant on several factors, mostly engineering based, though costs, familiarity, skill and tool sets can also come to play. Wood is easy to work, machine and sculpt to desired shapes. It's durable, fairly light for its strength and stiffness and most find it pleasant to employ on a boat. As with all material choices, there's drawbacks to consider, such as rot, finishing, environmental variables, etc. In terms of viability, wood often is the lightest choice, unless you're willing to shoot the budget over the side. For example I have a few canoe and kayak designs, most on some form of wooden build but a few in 'glass or composite. The 'glass versions can't come close to competing with the wooden ones in terms of weight and stiffness, though toss some carbon and Kevlar into the mix and they can easily be lighter and stiffer than the wooden designs.

The same is true with aluminum spars. Wooden spars of similar compressive and bending modulus, tend to be more flexible, which on some spars is less than desirable. I build several birdsmouth mast each year and under say about 20', it's difficult for a stayed aluminum mast to compare with a wooden one in terms of weight, given similar other physical attributes. Once over this size alloy extrusions easily are lighter, so it's a point of interest for the engineer, but not much for one admiring a freshly varnished mast.

In the end these choices usually make themselves self apparent. Budget restraints, the ability to work the material, its availability on the local market, appropriateness in physical qualities, etc. all conspire to make yacht designers prematurely bald, from the endless head scratching. Ted Brewer calls this the triple D's (Difficult Design Decisions) I prefer to call it "Convoluted Concessions in Discontiguous Compromise", because of the back breaking effort often required to quantify these design choices.
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