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Clarification of "Under 20ft" for r2ak

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:07 pm
by illan_voyager
In the world of boats, an "under 20ft" boat can mean a lot of things... and I am hoping for clarification.

Quite a few small sailboats called "20ft" by their manufacturer/designer are actually ~21ft overall, for example. And some 21ft designs have a waterline length of 20ft or less...

for the purpose of the small craft advisor $1,000 prize,

does 20ft mean:
-20ft hull waterline length?
-20ft waterline?
-20ft overall?

Are (retractable or fixed) bowsprits or poles counted?
Are stern hung rudders that stick out behind the hull counted or not?

Any input greatly appreciated.

If this is not the right place to ask, could anyone point me in the right direction as to where I would attempt to get an answer to these questions.

thank you

Re: Clarification of "Under 20ft" for r2ak

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:46 pm
by W9GFO
Just a few days ago I spoke to Josh about this as I also had the same question. The answer I got was "Length on deck". The same answer I received from the race boss.

Length on deck, as I understand it, is the overall length of the hull not counting bits that stick out. Also, a reversed transom or stem should not give you a shorter LOD than the actual length of the hull.

If a reverse transom does not count towards the LOD, then I would like to know soon so that I can increase my waterline length and still meet the rule.

Re: Clarification of "Under 20ft" for r2ak

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:39 pm
by Editors
W9GFO is correct. We're specifying the prize go to the first boat to finish that is 20 feet or less, length on deck. This means things like bowsprits, railings, and even rudders won't count against length, but the waterline length added with a reverse transom would. You can also think of our rule simply as the "honest length of the boat's hull."

Re: Clarification of "Under 20ft" for r2ak

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:35 pm
by W9GFO
Just measured mine which is still under construction, the hull is 239-1/2". I better be careful with the rubrail. :?

Re: Clarification of "Under 20ft" for r2ak

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:33 am
by beamreach
Interesting and important discussion of some confusing nomenclature! By including the WLL added by a reverse transom, though, I think we're closer to LOA than LOD at this point. "Honest length" is a nice idea, but doesn't really help. :?

It sounds like the spirit of the "under 20'" prize is closely aligned with the definition of LOA given at this web page -- my favorite on the topic, especially due to its assessment of how discussions like this usually go!

Wouldn't you agree with the LOA in their nice schematic, Josh?

And their definition of LOA as a length that
"includes any bow or stern appendages that are a structurally integral part of the hull (eg. a swim platform or anchor pulpit moulded as part of the hull), but excludes bowsprits, boomkins, bolted-on pulpits and stern platforms, or other appendages that aren't an integral part of the hull itself."

Re: Clarification of "Under 20ft" for r2ak

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:42 am
by Editors
Hi Scott,

Hadn't see this post. Yes, that's a good representation of our standard. You're right, it's not really LOD, nor is it what some define as LOA, but this LOA drawing is good since it includes length at transom but doesn't include bowsprit length past hull.


Re: Clarification of "Under 20ft" for r2ak

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:51 pm
by W9GFO
That depiction of LOA does not match my understanding of it, nor the marinas which use overall length to determine how much you pay. I have always understood LOA to include permanent parts of the boat including bowsprits and bumpkins.

LH (length of hull) is what I think should be the standard, and it is pretty much exactly what was described in the third post.

Re: Clarification of "Under 20ft" for r2ak

Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:04 pm
by W9GFO
Has the rule changed? Or has there been a mistake in naming Yankee Peddlers the winner of the side bet? The Santana 20 that they used does not meet the 20ft and under rule as described here - unless they have modified it to be a few inches shorter.

Re: Clarification of "Under 20ft" for r2ak

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:07 pm
by W9GFO
Still waiting to hear what has happened with the 20ft and under rule. The 2019 R2AK is over and exactly one boat finished that met this rule, the last boat to finish, team Solveig.

In reading the bio for Team Yankee Peddlers it is apparent that the race organizers were aware that their Santana 20 was actually more than 20 ft in length. They say;
"Making the last twenty or so references irrelevant to them is the fact that their 20 feet (or so) of plastic sailing fantastic..."

So what gives? After repeatedly verifying the hard limit of 20 ft "and no more" a team that violates this rules is declared the winner, while the team that actually meets the rule is ignored.